Multiple Truths Can Coexist - Dr. Hoai Julie Pham

Can multiple truths coexist in one conversation? In this episode of Everything’s Not Black & White, hosts Lachandra and Brian sit down with Dr. Hoai Julie Pham, a PhD historian and CEO of Curiosity Based. From her journey as a Vietnamese refugee to her work helping global organizations, Julie explains why replacing judgment with curiosity is the ultimate leadership skill.

We dive into the "shades of gray" within the Vietnam War, exploring the South Vietnamese perspective that history books often leave out. Julie also breaks down her "Rubber Band Rule" for respect—learning how to stretch for others without hitting your breaking point. Whether you’re navigating workplace conflict or personal growth, this conversation is a masterclass in staying human in a divisive world.

Key Highlights:

• The Rubber Band Rule: Understanding your personal limits for respect.
• Coexisting Truths: Why "Liberation Day" and "The Day We Lost Our Country" are both real.
• The Power of the Pause: Shifting from reacting to responding.
• Self-Awareness: Why leadership is always an "inside job."

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Transcript

Everything's Not Black & White

Multiple Truths Can Coexist - Dr. Hoai Julie Pham

Episode Transcript

Intro Announcement: Welcome to Everything's Not Black and White with your hosts, Lala and Brian.

Lala: Hello everyone, welcome to today's episode. We are very excited to be joined by a guest whose life sits at the intersection of history, survival, and human connection.

Dr. Julie Pham is a PhD historian, a Cambridge scholar, and the CEO of Curiosity Based. Born in Vietnam and arriving in the US as a two-month-old refugee, Julie's story is one of deep roots and radical transitions. She's also the author of Their War—a groundbreaking look at the South Vietnamese perspective of the Vietnam War, a narrative often left out of the history books—and the bestseller 7 Forms of Respect.

Julie has spent a career helping people navigate the shades of gray in their own lives, teaching us how to replace judgment with curiosity. Julie, we are so excited to have you on the show. Welcome to Everything's Not Black and White!

Julie: Lachandra, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really excited to be here.

Lala: Well, we are excited to have you here as well. I think it's such an interesting perspective to start talking about the Vietnam War. From my own personal history, I had three uncles and my father who all fought in the Vietnam War—and they were drafted. They were not volunteers; they were drafted. It was something that was honestly very devastating to our family when they came back.

This is a different perspective that a lot of people don't normally get to hear outside of the American narrative. When most people think about the Vietnam War, they think in terms of two sides, but your work actually introduces another perspective. Can you talk to us a little bit about what that is and what it revealed for you?

Julie: Well, first, I just have to thank your father and your uncles for their service. Thank you so much.

Usually, when people think of the two sides of the Vietnam War, they think it was between Americans and the Vietnamese—where the "Vietnamese" refers strictly to the North Vietnamese. The third perspective that's often left out is the South Vietnamese. The South Vietnamese were often dismissed as puppets or lackeys of the Americans. Yet, they actually were very independent, and they considered the Americans to be their allies, not their bosses or people pushing them around.

Lala: That's so interesting. We actually met with a young lady from Iran a couple of weeks ago, and she said almost the exact same thing—there's an internal rebellion in Iran that wants its own autonomy to fight against the regime, but when outside powers stepped in, it actually took away their agency. Did you feel that same dynamic when studying the South Vietnamese perspective?

Julie: When I first started studying in college, all I found in American textbooks was the "Americans vs. North Vietnamese" narrative. It was really through talking to my father that I learned the South Vietnamese perspective. It was astounding to me, and it made me realize how often American narratives center entirely on themselves. It takes extra work to seek out all the different perspectives that exist.

Lala: I love that you're a historian because understanding history helps us avoid repeating the same mistakes. When you were studying the South Vietnamese military, what was something about the culture and life during that time that would surprise most Americans?

Julie: What surprises Americans—though it wouldn't surprise South Vietnamese people—is how long a man served once he was drafted. In the American military, soldiers served a tour of duty, usually around one year. But once you were drafted into the South Vietnamese military, you were drafted for life. You only left when the war ended.

The second thing that surprises people is what happened after the war ended. Officers in the South Vietnamese military were sent to what the communist regime called "re-education camps." In reality, they were prison camps. My father was sentenced to a prison camp for three years. He talked about how hard it was and how he never knew when or if he would be released. When he finally got out after three years, he said, "We have to leave this country."

Even living in Vietnam for five years while doing my PhD research, I remember screening the movie Journey from the Fall—which is about the re-education camps and the boat people experience—to a room of young adults in Hanoi born after 1975. When the movie ended, they said, "We were never taught that history." In official communist history, re-education camps were portrayed as peaceful classrooms where people sat at tables studying Marxism.

Lala: That surprises me because I had no idea! Three years in a prison camp is terrifying, and I know some people were held for over 15 years. People in America talk about freedom and the pursuit of happiness, but we often don't grasp what it means to have your freedom stripped away simply because a regime wants to exert total control.

When your father got out and said, "We have to leave," was there still a sense of pride in being South Vietnamese, or did he feel he had to change how he represented himself?

Julie: There is absolute pride in being South Vietnamese, which is distinct from simply being "Vietnamese." Even in recent years, I explicitly tell people that I am South Vietnamese to highlight that historical distinction.

In South Vietnamese refugee communities today—like in Seattle where I live—we still honor the flag of the Republic of Vietnam (the yellow flag with three red stripes) as our heritage flag. That is very different from the current national flag of Vietnam (the red flag with a yellow star). There is immense pride in being South Vietnamese because it represents a time when we were fighting for democracy.

Lala: Democracy is something people take for granted until they see it slipping away, and that changes everything about how you view your position in the world.

One thing you've said that I find fascinating is that history taught you curiosity. How does that curiosity show up when you help organizations navigate communication challenges today?

Julie: It serves as a constant reminder that multiple truths can coexist.

For example, April 30th in the US is commonly referred to as the "Fall of Saigon." In Vietnam today, that same date is celebrated as "Liberation Day." And in the South Vietnamese diaspora, that day is remembered as "The Day We Lost Our Country." All three perspectives are true depending on where you stand.

I tell people that multiple truths can coexist in everyday life, too. When you have a conflict with a coworker, you can both be right, and you can both be wrong! It's not about trying to prove who is right or wrong—it's about staying in the conversation to learn from one another.

Lala: That is so spot on. As a Black woman in my mid-50s, two contrasting truths can exist in your mind and body at the exact same time—the most exhilarating time of your life can coincide with one of the hardest.

Having spent 30+ years in Fortune 15 corporate environments learning traditional "executive presence"—which was modeled after older white men—my leadership style as an older Black woman is inherently different. When people tell me, "You're not a typical leader," I reply, "Good! I want to be atypical so there's room for more of us to show up authentically."

Curiosity means recognizing that my lived experience isn't the only way to live.

Julie: Absolutely. We also belong to multiple cultures, communities, and identities simultaneously. Depending on the context, different aspects of our identity will be emphasized more strongly. That isn't being fake or inauthentic—it's a conscious choice to lean into a specific part of yourself in that moment.

Brian: Part of why people struggle in conflict—whether with a coworker or a spouse—is because we've been conditioned to want to be right all the time. That need to be right overrides our curiosity to understand a different perspective.

How do you help people shift away from needing to be right and lean into curiosity instead?

Julie: I'll share a personal example. I was in a major disagreement with a coworker, going back and forth on an issue. I kept asking them, "Why did that happen?" and they kept giving me defensive answers.

When I paused, I realized what I was actually asking was: "How could you possibly have done that when I told you not to?" What I really wanted was for them to admit they were wrong!

I had to step back and change my approach. I went back to them and asked, "When I said that earlier, did you hear me?" They said, "Yeah, I heard you." Then I asked, "Did you believe me?" And they said, "No, I didn't believe you."

That was a lightbulb moment! They heard me, but they didn't believe me. We so often focus on the mechanics of communication—"I emailed you, I texted you, I told you"—conflating hearing with believing.

Shift happens through self-reflection. Curiosity is an inward practice first. I was so fixated on being right that it was getting in the way of genuine curiosity.

Lala: Leadership is an inside job, honey! You have to look at yourself—the good, the bad, and the ugly—and practice every day. You don't go to the gym once and instantly get muscles; building emotional intelligence and curiosity works the exact same way.

You also write about how respect is relative. What feels respectful to one person might feel disrespectful to another. Can you share an example of when respect was intended, but landed completely differently?

Julie: Respect feels the same—we all want to feel seen and acknowledged—but what respect looks like in action varies wildly.

Personally, I value candor and ask people for constructive feedback. However, I do not want constructive feedback given to me publicly. Once, while I was facilitating a workshop and testing new material with external clients present, a coworker started publicly challenging my material in the middle of the session.

Afterward, I had to explain to him, "I want your candor, but as my teammate, please give that to me privately later. In front of external folks, it felt distracting and upsetting."

To get respect right, we have to be clear with ourselves about our specific nuances so we can communicate them clearly to others.

Lala: I love that. I remember telling a former boss—who was ten years younger than me—how as a middle-aged Black woman, I carried a heavy internal pressure feeling that if I didn't excel, I might accidentally close doors for other Black women behind me. She said, "That's heavy, you shouldn't carry that." I said, "It is heavy, but it's what society has taught me."

We had to establish an understanding: I need feedback, but framed around how I can improve my efficiency, not framed as if I'm failing. Having the self-awareness to explain why you receive things a certain way helps others meet you where you're at.

In your book 7 Forms of Respect, you talk about Information as one form of respect. How does sharing or withholding information shift trust and power?

Julie: Information is one of the trickiest forms of respect. People constantly say they want information, but when you give it to them—CC'ing them on emails, giving full access, preparing board decks—they often don't even read it!

We also have to balance transparency with privacy. For example, when discussing gender pay equity, almost everyone agrees men and women should be paid equally. But when you ask, "Should we publicly post everyone's exact salary on the wall?" people hesitate because they value privacy alongside transparency.

When people feel information is being withheld, the core issue usually isn't the data itself—it's a lack of trust.

Lala: People confuse transparency of process with confidentiality of private information.

Can you explain the Rubber Band Rule from your book?

Julie: The Golden Rule says, "Treat people how YOU want to be treated." The problem is, other people don't want to be treated the way you do! The Platinum Rule says, "Treat people how THEY want to be treated." But what if how they want to be treated violates your own boundaries?

The Rubber Band Rule is about self-respect and knowing your stretching capacity versus your breaking points. In relationships, we naturally stretch for others—accommodating their preferences or reading their agendas because it matters to them. But if you stretch too far without self-awareness, you snap.

Your rubber band capacity changes depending on context—most people are much stretchier at home than they are at work! Knowing your breaking point is ultimately about honoring yourself.

Lala: Where does the disconnect happen most when people are stretching for each other?

Julie: The disconnect happens when we keep score. True collaboration requires recognizing that we can't all "win" in the exact same way at the exact same time. Some days I stretch more, some days you stretch more, but we don't keep tabs—we trust that it balances out over time.

And honestly, sometimes you will snap. You can't always avoid the break. Snapping releases the tension, shows you where your boundary was, and allows you to learn, recover, and move forward.

Lala: Recovery is key! Just like spraining a muscle, when you overstretch, you have to prioritize recovery before stepping back into the fray.

For someone caught in a rigid, "black-and-white" conflict right now, what is one curiosity-based question they can ask themselves to start shifting the conversation?

Julie: Ask yourself this question: "Am I willing to learn from this person?"

Be completely honest with yourself. If the answer right now is "No, I'm too angry, hurt, or betrayed," that's okay! Take a pause. Say, "I need some time to think about this before we continue." Pushing forward when you aren't actually willing to learn will only damage the relationship further. Talk it through with a trusted third party first until you're genuinely ready to learn.

Lala: The power of the pause! Taking emotion out of the moment allows rational communication to happen.

Julie, of all the profound lessons you've gathered as a historian and leader, what is the truest lesson that guides your life every day?

Julie: As a historian looking at major historical events like the Vietnam War, people always ask, "What are the lessons learned so we can avoid this?" The truth is, we can't completely avoid conflict or hardship—wars and conflicts will happen.

The real lesson is learning how to be through it, remembering that different people hold different truths, and knowing that whatever we are feeling right now will pass. Most importantly: You are not alone. You are never alone in feeling the hard things. Knowing that gives me the energy and joy to get through the tough times.

Lala: Dr. Julie Pham, you are brilliant! Thank you for sharing your wisdom, history, and heart with us today. For listeners who want to follow your work or get your books, how can they connect with you?

Julie: You can visit my website at curiositybased.com (curiositybased.com), or connect with me directly on LinkedIn! I'm currently working on the next edition of 7 Forms of Respect focused on life outside of work, and I'd love to hear people's stories.

Lala: Wonderful! Thank you so much for being here with us today, Julie!

Julie: Thank you both for inviting me!

Brian: You can email us at embwpodcast@gmail.com, or follow us on Instagram and Facebook!

Lala: Thank you all for listening to Everything's Not Black & White. Have a great day, and we'll see you next time!

Brian: Bye!