Everything's Not Black & White
Life isn’t black and white—and neither are the issues shaping our lives and communities.
Hosted by LaLa and Brian, Everything's Not Black & White is a podcast dedicated to exploring the nuanced gray areas between opposing viewpoints. Behind every strong opinion is an individual's story, backstory, and lived experience that shaped how they see the world.
Join us as we trade knee-jerk reactions for curious questions. We dive into today’s trending topics to understand why people feel the way they do, creating a space for respectful, honest dialogue that bridges divides instead of deepening them.
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Everything's Not Black & White
Neither War Nor Appeasement - Zolal Habibi
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In this episode, Lala and Brian move beyond the headlines to explore the human stories behind the current crisis in Iran. They are joined by human rights activist Zolal Habibi, a member of the National Council of Resistance of Iran, who shares her deeply personal connection to the struggle for freedom.
Zolal discusses the haunting parallels between the 1988 massacre—which claimed her father’s life—and the modern uprisings led by a brave new generation. The conversation explores the "third way" for Iran’s future: a path that rejects both war and appeasement in favor of a secular, democratic, and non-nuclear republic.
From the power of self-sacrifice to the NCRI’s practical 10-point roadmap for peace, this episode is a call to move past the surface level and understand the true cost of resistance.
National Council of Resistance of Iran
Official site of the NCRI President-elect
Insights into her vision for a new Iran
Organization of Iranian American Communities
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Everything's Not Black & White
Neither War Nor Appeasement - Zolal Habibi
Episode Transcript
Intro Announcement: Welcome to Everything's Not Black and White with your hosts, Lala and Brian.
Lala: Hello everybody. Today our conversation is focused on the current crisis in Iran. With the world reacting to the joint military strikes between the US and Israel that began this past February, it's easy to focus on only the tactical and political shifts. But behind those headlines are millions of human stories and a long history of people seeking a different future.
To help us move past surface-level news, we are joined by Zolal Habibi. Zolal is a human rights activist and a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Council of Resistance of Iran. Her perspective is shaped by a lifetime of resistance, and she's here to help us understand the backstory of a nation currently at its tipping point.
Thank you so much, Zolal, for being here with us today. We really appreciate it.
Zolal: Thank you very much for having me, and please allow me to greet everyone who's tuning in to the podcast today.
Lala: Yes, thank you! A person's beliefs are deeply rooted in their firsthand knowledge and past experiences. Your commitment to a free Iran began with the story of your own family and the 1988 massacre that took your father's life. Could you share that background story and how your family's experience shaped your core beliefs about what Iran has become?
Zolal: I was only seven at that time. Iran has always been part and parcel of my life growing up. Despite being part of the generation unfortunately born and raised abroad—I've never actually had the chance to be in Iran—there hasn't been a day in my life that the plight of the people of Iran hasn't been an issue for me.
My parents were activists, so I was introduced to the human rights situation in Iran very early on. Because my father was a prominent writer and human rights activist, I came face-to-face with victims of torture and people who had escaped prison when I was only four or five years old. That was my reality.
In 1988, my father was killed by the regime, and that changed everything in my life. That summer, the regime executed over 30,000 political prisoners. Its impact on the history and future of Iran is something we're still feeling today.
At that time, the eight-year Iran-Iraq War was coming to an end. Khomeini knew that the Iranian people were devastated by war and suppression and wanted change. He knew he had to spread enough fear in society to maintain his grip on power, so he turned to executing political prisoners—the pioneers who would lead any change in Iranian society. By eliminating them, the regime bought itself time. That massacre caused complete silence inside Iran for 11 years until a new generation led the student uprising in 1999.
With thousands of people killed during the street protests this past January, we are seeing the beginning of similar tactics today.
Lala: It is absolutely heartbreaking. First of all, please accept our deepest condolences on the loss of your father in such a heinous way. My great-grandmother was murdered in 1917 by the Ku Klux Klan in the rural South, so while I don't know firsthand, I know how targeted violence deeply affects a family across generations.
We see people in America resisting government overreach, but what you are up against in Iran is a total theocracy. When you look at the resistance currently happening in Iran—mostly led by young people standing up—what principles do you think guide that level of courage?
Zolal: The circumstances in Iran are extreme—over 120,000 people have been executed in Iran for their political beliefs alone over the past 45 years.
What is key for those struggling for freedom and democracy is standing by your principles and values. That has been the guiding light for our movement, which has been fighting against two dictatorships for 60 years now. It requires non-negotiable dedication to those core values and recognizing your freedoms as things to be cherished and safeguarded.
Among the political prisoners executed in Iran recently, three were under the age of 35. They belong to a generation that has known nothing but this tyrannical regime. Yet, through internet communication, phone calls, and media, they developed an immense understanding of this fight.
During the uprisings in January, young teenagers left final farewell video notes for their parents before going into the streets with empty hands, fully understanding the consequences. They wanted their parents to know they made that choice with open eyes. That message shows that values will always carve out a path, no matter how brutal the dictatorship. It requires honesty and self-sacrifice—the two principles we have continuously stood by.
Lala: That is so empowering to hear. Nothing changes if nothing changes, and seeing people willing to risk everything for a cause bigger than themselves is how true movements happen.
You carry such heavy burdens. How do you take care of yourself mentally, emotionally, and physically to get through each day?
Zolal: Humans have far more potential to endure than we realize. Because I became acquainted with these realities as a child, it shifted my perspective. I've always considered myself one of the lucky ones because I've known many people who suffered far worse than I did.
As I grew older, I realized how fortunate I am to live at a time when I have the opportunity to dedicate my life to a cause much greater than myself: the freedom of my country. When you are concentrated on that ultimate goal, trivial everyday issues lose their weight. I don't see myself as a victim, but as an agent of change.
Lala: That point of view keeps you grounded, and I know our listeners will take that to heart.
Given the current state of conflict involving the US, Israel, and Iran, you have advocated for a secular, democratic, and non-nuclear republic. What does the immediate path to peace look like in your view?
Zolal: Our position has been clear for over two decades. Twenty-two years ago, Maryam Rajavi, the President-elect of the National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI) for the transition period, stated at the European Parliament that the solution to Iran is neither war nor appeasement.
Appeasement only emboldens dictatorships—history showed us that in World War II—and eventually leads to an unavoidable war. The real solution is supporting the people of Iran and their organized resistance to bring about regime change from within. Unlike many other situations, Iran has an extensive, organized resistance network on the ground capable of pushing that change forward.
Lala: No one will save a nation except its own people, and empowering Iranians to take back their country is essential.
What does the roadmap for a post-regime Iran look like?
Zolal: The people of Iran do not want to revert back to the previous monarchy or stay with the current teocratic dictatorship—they want to move forward into a 21st-century secular, democratic republic.
The NCRI has a clear, established roadmap:
- A 6-month interim plan immediately following the overthrow of the regime.
- National elections for a Constituent Assembly within those six months to draft a new constitution.
- A public referendum to vote on the new constitution.
- Free national elections based on the new constitutional laws.
This transition is guided by Mrs. Maryam Rajavi's 10-Point Plan, which acts as the blueprint for the interim government. It has garnered formal support from over 4,000 lawmakers worldwide (including majorities in the US Congress), 130 former heads of state, and over 100 Nobel laureates. Many describe it as Jeffersonian because of its democratic structure designed to prevent falling back into any form of dictatorship.
Lala: Having a concrete six-month interim plan that leads straight into free elections is incredibly wise.
Zolal, if listeners want to stay informed, support the cause, or connect with your work, where should they go?
Zolal: To stay accurately informed and navigate around state disinformation, visit:
- ncr-iran.org (National Council of Resistance of Iran)
- maryam-rajavi.com
If you want to become active in the United States, reach out to the Organization of Iranian American Communities at oiac.org, which has chapters across 40 states.
You can also find me directly on LinkedIn and Instagram by searching Zolal Habibi.
Lala: We will put all of those links in our show notes so everyone can stay informed. Thank you again, Zolal, for being with us today and sharing your story.
Zolal: Thank you so much for the opportunity!
Lala: Brian, tell people how they can get in touch with us!
Brian: You can email us at embwpodcast@gmail.com, or follow us on Instagram and Facebook!
Lala: That's all the time we have for today. Thank you again to Zolal Habibi, and thank you to all our listeners. We'll see you next time!
Brian: Bye-bye!
