Everything's Not Black & White
Life isn’t black and white—and neither are the issues shaping our lives and communities.
Hosted by LaLa and Brian, Everything's Not Black & White is a podcast dedicated to exploring the nuanced gray areas between opposing viewpoints. Behind every strong opinion is an individual's story, backstory, and lived experience that shaped how they see the world.
Join us as we trade knee-jerk reactions for curious questions. We dive into today’s trending topics to understand why people feel the way they do, creating a space for respectful, honest dialogue that bridges divides instead of deepening them.
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Everything's Not Black & White
Adoption’s Healing Heart - Donna Pope
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In this episode, Lala and Brian sit down with Donna Pope, Executive Director of Heart to Heart Adoptions, to peel back the layers of the adoption experience. From the gut-wrenching grief and "placement" decisions of birth mothers to the complexities of raising three sons as a single adoptive mother, Donna provides a masterclass in empathy, honesty, and "self-determination." Whether you are considering adoption, are part of the adoption triad, or simply want to understand how a heart grows through radical change, this conversation offers the "mic drop" moments you need to hear.
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Everything's Not Black & White
Adoption’s Healing Heart - Donna Pope
Episode Transcript
Intro Announcement: Welcome to Everything's Not Black and White with your hosts, Lala and Brian.
Lala: Hey everybody, welcome to today's episode. We're so glad you're here!
Today's conversation requires both heart and honesty. We're diving into the world of adoption—not just systems, but the everyday lived experiences, decisions, relationships, and realities that don't often get talked about openly.
We are joined by Donna Pope, an adoption advocate, Executive Director of Heart to Heart Adoptions, and someone who has spent nearly three decades walking alongside birth mothers, adoptive families, and children. Her journey into this work began personally and over time has grown into a mission rooted in care, respect, and seeing adoption not just as a process, but as a path toward healing and growth. Donna is also an adoptive mother of three sons, bringing both professional expertise and lived experience into everything she does.
Donna, we are so grateful you're with us today. Thank you for coming!
Brian: Welcome, Donna.
Donna: Well, thank you very much for having me. I look forward to this conversation.
Lala: Yes, we do as well! To ground the audience a bit, can you take us back to that moment when your life shifted into adoption work? What did you see or feel that made you say, "Something has got to change"?
Donna: First, in your intro you mentioned I'm an expert on adoption, and I was praying you wouldn't say "and an expert on parenting"—because as an adoptive mom, I am not an expert on parenting!
Lala: Girl, listen! None of us are! We're all figuring it out!
Donna: We are all figuring it out!
To answer your question, my shift was gradual. It started when I helped my sister, Vian, who was looking to adopt because she couldn't carry children. She adopted three kids and wanted to adopt a fourth, so I got to know different agencies through her search.
Even before that, an agency had asked me to house birth mothers—women who were pregnant and considering placing their children for adoption who were experiencing homelessness. I had an extra room, so I housed these women for a number of years and got to know them deeply.
I felt strongly that these women needed to be treated with a level of respect that wasn't always being shown to them. Consider what they were doing: carrying a pregnancy, enduring delivery, and planning to place that child with another family. The joy that biological parents feel when cuddling their newborn after all that labor pain—birth mothers are surrendering that joy. That loss is immense. Coming to respect these women for their sacrifice and helping them navigate that grief was my first turning point.
The second point was seeing how adoption affected adoptive families financially, relationally, and emotionally. But all of that learning paled in comparison to what it felt like when I became an adoptive mom myself 26 years ago. I have three boys. They are my greatest joy and, as every parent knows, my greatest challenge!
Lala: That is an incredible story. People don't always understand the profound loss involved when a birth mother places her baby. Her body spent ten months shifting its organs to carry that child, so surrendering the baby is literally and figuratively losing a piece of yourself. There is a massive amount of grief to process even when full consent is given.
Donna: We intentionally use the term "placed" rather than "given up." We want birth mothers to feel empowered in their choice. They are choosing to place their child into the home of a family they selected.
Importantly—now more than ever—open adoption allows them to see how their child is doing through an ongoing relationship with the family. It doesn't have to mean in-person visits, but watching from a distance helps ensure they haven't lost their child as deeply as they otherwise would have.
Lala: I love that language—placing a child with love into a family they chose.
Tell us a bit more about your boys. Did you adopt all three at the same time?
Donna: I'm a single mom! Do I recommend single parenting? No, I don't!
When I was housing birth mothers, one young woman staying in one of my condos was struggling with substance abuse. We were having a really hard time finding an adoptive family for her baby. One morning she said to me, "I don't know why you don't just adopt him!" I said, "That would be insanity!"
But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I wanted to do it. So I adopted my oldest son, who is now almost 27. Two and a half years later, I adopted my second son through a similar situation. Two and a half years after that, the biological mother of my second son gave birth to another boy. When he was two years old, she contacted me and asked, "Are you open to raising him too?" He's been with me ever since.
Lala: As a single mother adopting, did you experience pushback from agencies or systems?
Donna: At one point, our agency was placing up to 20 children a year with single moms. Most of the pushback actually came from me cautioning prospective single parents: "This is not as easy as it appears!"
It's challenging for the parent, but it's also challenging for the kids. My boys have had wonderful men in their lives, but having supportive male figures is still different from having a dad in the home.
Lala: We have single mother friends and LGBTQ+ friends who have faced various agency or systemic hurdles trying to adopt. People often hold an expectation that a family can't thrive unless it fits a traditional structure.
Donna: There is a lot more inclusivity in adoption now. I only push back because I know firsthand how hard single parenting is, but I would never discourage anyone.
Lala: You have to know yourself and know what you're capable of before taking on parenthood.
Donna: A man once asked me if he should proceed with a complex transracial adoption involving chemical exposure and potential mental health challenges. He asked, "Should I do this?"
I told him: "Only if you want your life to change. If you're happy with your life exactly as it is right now and don't want it to change, don't do this. But if you want your heart to grow in ways you can't imagine, if you want your capacity to love and accept people quite different from you to expand, there is no better way than falling deeply in love with a child."
Lala: That is so beautiful! People often think, "I'll just add a baby into my existing lifestyle," but your whole life changes!
Beyond the emotional journey, there are complex legal and medical systems involved in adoption. What is working well in the system right now, and what still needs improvement?
Donna: One major area of discussion is birth mother support. The number one reason women create an adoption plan is a lack of resources—financial, emotional, or structural.
The average birth mother is 28 years old, and 80% already have other children. These are mature women who realize, "I do not have the resources to raise another child, and I believe placement is in this baby's best interest."
The systemic challenge is providing appropriate support. You want to provide enough financial and medical resources so she receives 10 months of proper care and delivery without crossing into making her feel coerced or like she is "selling" her child. You want her empowered to choose the adoptive family and define the ongoing relationship style she wants.
Lala: When in a pregnancy do birth mothers usually reach out to your agency?
Donna: Women reach out at all stages, but most make firm decisions and work through the details during their third trimester.
Lala: How do you navigate the complex emotional healing required for everyone in the adoption triad—birth parents, adoptive parents, and adoptees?
Donna: We recently received a letter from a 15-year-old adoptee to her biological mom. She wrote: "Mom, I want you to know I'm happy, loved, and doing well, but I wonder about you. I wonder what you look like, what my siblings look like, and what it would be like to talk to you."
Adoptees and birth parents carry profound, natural questions. When open adoption relationships are maintained in a healthy, moderated environment, it alleviates that overwhelming sense of "lostness."
When my oldest son was eight or nine, he was struggling, so I took him to a counselor. The counselor asked me to wait in the lobby. 30 seconds later, she opened the door and asked me to step back in. My son had immediately asked her: "Why did my biological mom place me for adoption, but keep my older brother?"
He had carried that burning question internally, and the second he felt in a safe space, it came out. Because his birth mom and I had previously discussed how to handle that question, I was prepared to answer him honestly and kindly. Today, he has a direct relationship with his biological mother where they can talk openly.
Brian: My father left my mom when she was pregnant, and he passed away when I was 11, so I never met him. Growing up, I had a driving desire to meet his side of the family. When I finally met his brothers, it was a breath of fresh air—I saw my own personality traits and artistic tendencies reflected in them. It filled in blank pages for me.
Donna: A wise man once shared a poem with me:
"The world outside, though vast and wide, is small compared to that inside. I've pondered how this thing should be, that I should have to study me."
We all "study me." Adoptees, birth mothers, birth fathers, and adoptive parents all need to understand themselves and their roots.
There is no perfect family. Having people who deeply love you and whom you can call home is what every human being needs.
Lala: Donna Pope, that was a total mic-drop moment!
If our listeners want to connect with you or learn more about Heart to Heart Adoptions, how can they reach you?
Donna: You can visit our website or email me directly at donnap@hearttoheartadoptions.com.
Also, by the end of this year, we are launching adoptions.com—a social media, matching, and resource platform connecting adoptees, birth parents, adoptive families, and service providers across the entire adoption triad!
Lala: That is an amazing initiative! Thank you so much, Donna, for sharing your professional expertise and your personal journey as a mother with us today.
Donna: Thank you so much for having me!
Lala: Brian, how can listeners stay connected with our show?
Brian: You can email us at embwpodcast@gmail.com, or follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Lala: Thank you all for joining us on Everything's Not Black & White. Have a great day, everyone!
Brian: See ya! Bye!
