Everything's Not Black & White
Life isn’t black and white—and neither are the issues shaping our lives and communities.
Hosted by LaLa and Brian, Everything's Not Black & White is a podcast dedicated to exploring the nuanced gray areas between opposing viewpoints. Behind every strong opinion is an individual's story, backstory, and lived experience that shaped how they see the world.
Join us as we trade knee-jerk reactions for curious questions. We dive into today’s trending topics to understand why people feel the way they do, creating a space for respectful, honest dialogue that bridges divides instead of deepening them.
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Everything's Not Black & White
Escape the Narcissist's Script - Agatha Peters
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Join Lala and Brian as they sit down with Nigerian-American psychotherapist and author Agatha Peters, founder of Beautiful Sunshine Therapy and author of Trapped in Their Script. Agatha shares her inspiring journey from working in the ER to starting her own culturally sensitive practice, focusing on helping people break free from the burden of cultural and family expectations. This eye-opening conversation deeply defines narcissism, distinguishing it from general conflict, and explores its devastating impact on family dynamics and mental health. Crucially, they discuss the unique complications of healing in collectivist cultures and offer practical first steps, like journaling, for reclaiming your life and self-worth from abuse.
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Everything's Not Black & White
Escape the Narcissist's Script - Agatha Peters
Episode Transcript
Intro Announcement: Welcome to Everything's Not Black and White with your hosts, Lala and Brian.
Lala: Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. We're so excited to have you all for this episode!
Today, I am super thrilled to introduce you to a truly inspiring guest. We have Agatha Peters with us—she's the founder of Beautiful Sunshine Therapy and the author of Trapped in Their Script. Agatha is a Nigerian-American psychotherapist who's all about helping people reclaim their lives from the weight of cultural and family expectations.
So let's dive into a conversation that is as heartfelt as it is eye-opening. Welcome to the ENBW Podcast, Agatha!
Brian: Welcome, Agatha.
Agatha: Thanks for having me, guys!
Lala: We are so excited! For people meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about your journey and what led you from working as an ER social worker to starting your own private therapy practice?
Agatha: I've always wanted to be a therapist, even while working as an ER clinician and social worker. That was my long-term goal from the very first time I sat on the couch with a therapist myself—she was very encouraging. That was also around the time I was told that surviving a narcissist was a miracle.
I already knew my long-term goal was to own my own practice so I could advocate more directly and hopefully see the long-term effects of healing that I didn't get to see during short ER visits. Encouraged by my clinician friends, that's how I got started.
Lala: I love that you had a vision and made it real!
We hear the word "narcissist" thrown around a lot lately—especially in political and social media discourse—and I'm not sure people really understand what it actually means clinical-wise versus everyday language. From your education and experience, what actually defines narcissism, and how does it play out in family dynamics?
Agatha: Part of why I wrote my book, Trapped in Their Script, was because that word gets thrown around constantly without people understanding the day-to-day lived experience of someone struggling with a narcissistic abuser. Throwing those terms out casually dilutes the experience of real victims—much like how people throw around the term "bipolar" without understanding the actual clinical diagnosis.
True Narcissistic Personality Disorder involves a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, an overwhelming need for admiration, a sense of entitlement, constant manipulation, gaslighting, and a fundamental lack of empathy—they simply do not care about the harm they cause. This isn't just a friend who is mad at you on a Tuesday!
In family structures—especially within collectivist cultures—the narcissist centers themselves as the core, assigning toxic roles to family members: the caretaker/enabler, the golden child, or the scapegoat. The narcissist frequently drives wedges between siblings so they don't unite, keeping the family system in perpetual chaos and control. Living in an abode with a narcissist often triggers deep depression, anxiety, and PTSD in victims. It literally makes people sick.
Lala: I was having coffee with a friend who remembered her mother going through undiagnosed severe mood swings or personality issues when she was a child. Every time my friend got upset as a kid, her mother would react with twice as much dramatic emotion, leaving my friend feeling like, "I'm a bad kid because I'm making my mom upset." She's 56 years old now and still unpacking that trauma! When you grow up in that environment, you internalize the blame.
Agatha: When you're told you're bad or at fault constantly as a child, you start to believe it. The first step toward healing is being willing to look at it and undo that trauma.
Lala: Your book, Trapped in Their Script: Healing from Narcissistic Abuse in Collectivist Cultures, is such a powerful title. What made you decide to put your experiences and clinical work into print, and what do you hope readers receive from it?
Agatha: My clients inspired me. Many of my clients come from collectivist cultures. When I looked at the existing literature on narcissism in the Western world, it focused almost entirely on an independent, individualistic framework of healing—telling people to "just go no-contact" or "just walk away."
That individualistic approach simply does not work for folks raised in collectivist cultures where family, community, and group identity are deeply intertwined. There was no book addressing narcissistic abuse through a culturally sensitive lens. I wrote it to give people a realistic, culturally appropriate path to heal from that journey.
Lala: In the Black community here in America, there has historically been a similar stigma around therapy—people say, "Pray it away, don't tell strangers your business."
For listeners who might not be familiar with collectivist cultures, what are some of the cultural expectations and family loyalties that complicate healing from narcissistic abuse?
Agatha: In collectivist cultures, the group comes first. We think as a group, move as a group, and make decisions as a "we" rather than an "I." There is immense familial obligation.
Because of that "we" orientation, it's very difficult to separate your own identity from the group to begin your individual healing. Breaking away or setting boundaries feels like betraying your entire family, community, or culture. Furthermore, multi-generational living is very common—parents, in-laws, and extended family often live under the same roof. They can't just "pack up and cut contact" overnight like Western advice suggests.
As a therapist, you have to help clients establish boundaries, differentiate themselves, and heal within that complex cultural dynamic, which requires deep cultural competence.
Lala: Cultural competence in therapy is so vital! How can someone tell the difference between typical family conflict versus true narcissistic abuse?
Agatha: It comes down to patterns and safety.
Normal family conflict involves a disagreement where people can express emotions, perhaps agree to disagree, apologize, and move forward without systemic harm.
Narcissistic abuse is a persistent, chronic pattern. It involves constant gaslighting—rewriting history and telling you your reality isn't real—manipulation, zero genuine apologies, and a complete lack of empathy. You feel chronically unsafe, walking on eggshells, and your nervous system is constantly in a red-alert state of dread.
Lala: You see that in corporate environments too with narcissistic bosses or CEOs! You're constantly gaslit, trying to earn approval that will never come, and left feeling like a constant failure.
Agatha: Narcissists are frequently drawn to high-power professions—CEOs, doctors, high-ranking executives. If your work environment makes you feel chronically unsafe and gaslit, that's your cue to update your resume and get out! No job is worth your mental health.
Lala: Reflecting on your own journey, what was a belief you once held about yourself due to your upbringing that you later realized was a trauma response rather than who you truly were?
Agatha: Being told early on that I was a failure or wasn't smart. That trauma response shaped my life by instilling an overcompensating need to constantly prove my worth—working non-stop, writing books, pursuing degrees, feeling like I always had to do more to prove I wasn't a failure.
Healing meant coming to the realization that I am already enough. When a narcissist focuses on the one tiny spot you missed while cleaning an entire house and calls you an idiot, you internalize that perfectionism. Unlearning that means realizing you don't have to constantly prove your baseline human worth.
Lala: For someone reading or listening who currently feels trapped in a narcissist's script, what is a practical first step they can take to start reclaiming their life?
Agatha: Start journaling. Writing things down is one of the most accessible and powerful tools available.
When a narcissist gaslights you and tells you your experience didn't happen, your journal serves as an objective record of reality. It helps you ground yourself in the truth of what occurred, recognize recurring patterns of manipulation, and process the anxiety or depression without holding it all in your body.
Lala: For someone in a collectivist culture who wants to start therapy but feels immense guilt or fear of cultural stigma, what advice would you give them?
Agatha: First, remember that therapy is strictly confidential—your community will not know unless you choose to tell them.
Second, write down a vision for your future self. Ask yourself: "Where do I dream of being five years from now? How do I want to feel?" Then ask: "Should cultural stigma stop me from achieving this growth?"
When you frame therapy as the bridge to becoming your fullest, healthiest self, it helps overcome the fear of stepping into that healing space.
Lala: Can a narcissist ever truly change their patterns? What expectations should a victim have?
Agatha: In my clinical opinion, a core narcissist cannot truly change.
They might learn behavioral modifications or social scripts to navigate the world better, but developing genuine, deep empathy requires immense self-reflection—and narcissists inherently do not believe anything is wrong with them! Narcissism is a deeply ingrained personality disorder formed early in life.
If a victim stays in a relationship waiting for the narcissist to magically change, they are often prolonging their own suffering. Real change takes immense effort from someone who desperately wants to change; expecting it from someone who believes they are perfect is an exercise in futility.
Lala: What a powerful, necessary conversation. Agatha, thank you for bringing your clinical wisdom, cultural insight, and personal truth to our listeners today.
How can people connect with you, book a session, or purchase your book?
Agatha: You can visit my website at beautifulsunshinetherapy.com and find me on Instagram @beautifulsunshinetherapy (named after the definitions of my children's names!).
My book, Trapped in Their Script: Healing from Narcissistic Abuse in Collectivist Cultures, is available online wherever books are sold, including Amazon, with the audiobook version coming out soon!
Lala: All of those links will be available in our show notes!
Brian, how can our listeners stay connected with the show?
Brian: You can email us at embwpodcast@gmail.com, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Lala: Thank you all for listening to Everything's Not Black & White. Go get Agatha's book, take care of yourselves, and we'll see you next time!
Brian: See ya! Bye!
